Forum:Gil could be connected to the Storm King?
According to it’s entry, the The Storm King (Title) is a position that seems to entail ownership of the Muses, headship of the Knights of Jove and "rightful" rulership of Europa. Since "Jove" is another name for Jupiter or Zeus, ie. the ancient Greco-Roman King of the Gods who hurled lightning bolts, it appears that the ability to is connected. Gil has shown in the past, and with his vague origins he could be a direct descendent or even assume the role. (Perhaps by , or by a flashy show of a new lightning stick) His father could even help him, so he could carry on the Empire on a more legitimate way. Also, may signify that he’s Ganondorf/Link/Zelda reincarnated, with a triforce piece. To those immune to sarcasm, that last one's a joke. João Venezuela 23:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC) :It might be something bestowed by deed as opposed to blood as Tarvek seems to think, considering the of one of the fake Heterodyne plotters to Gil calling down lighting to fry an army of war clanks as well as how characters are always swearing by lightning and thunder throughout the series to date. : 17:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC) Category:Fan Theories ::Um, or that could be due to the fact that he called down LIGHTNING. I mean, that's pretty dang impressive. Would you be totally nonchalant about it? No. You'd look all shocked just like he did and say something along the lines of what he did. :::Well, maybe I would, but that's because I live in the real world. If I lived in a world where mechanical soldiers, talking cats, and gravity guns were commonplace, I don't think I'd be anywhere near as surprised, except maybe by the sheer size of the bolt that obliterated the war clank armada. As Carson himself said, "No, that was impressive... but they've seen a crack in Wulfenbach's power," and that would matter to most of the opportunists more than any lightning strike Gil could summon. ::::The very fact that Carson said it was impressive, and that most everyone seemed astounded by it, tells me that calling down lightning is not a common occurrence. Agatha wasn't surprised because she knew about it before hand-- she had seen the small lightning generator. Even the Baron was impressed by it... I would say that calling down lightning is not a common, any-spark-can-do-that kind of thing. So no, I don't think the reactions had anything to do with the Storm King or anything else like that. I think it was simply because calling down lightning is REALLY impressive.LadyVivamus 18:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC) :::Not to mention that, even if the Storm King title is hereditary, the fact that the current claimant to the title (Tarvek) can't summon lightning, and Gil can, could result in a reaction among the faithful not unlike young Arthur pulling the sword from the stone. Tatter D 22:24, 20 November 2008 (UTC) ::::One, Tarvek is not a claimant-- he has not made a claim, and I doubt he will until it is advantageous to do so. Two, why would calling lightning have anything to do with who is actually the heir? There's no indication that the original Storm King could do so. There's no reason to believe that "Storm King" is any more than a fancy title. LadyVivamus 18:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC) ::::: Tatter D 19:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC) ::::::No, he hasn't. 'Making a claim' would involve proclaiming himself to the public and quite possibly challenging the Baron for rule of the land.LadyVivamus 18:24, 24 November 2008 (UTC) :::::::Ah, semantics. Obviously it would also involve filing the necessary paperwork with the Fifty Families, the Seven Popes, and the United Nations, as well. Or maybe the word "claim" might also apply to declarations made to one's minions and possible allies. Whichever promises the most drama, I suppose. Tatter D 23:28, 24 November 2008 (UTC) ::::::::Scoff all you want, but there is a very big difference between "oh yeah, I'm descended from the Storm King" and proclaiming oneself for the throne. Wars are not started over heritage alone-- if Tarvek wanted to sit at home and not cause trouble, there wouldn't be any trouble caused just by his existence. However, when he stands up and officially claims that he IS the Storm King, then he can be called a claimant. And he won't do that until there is a clear advantage to doing so, because royalty has a much higher death rate than mere nobility.LadyVivamus 18:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC) ::We now, of course, have some new information. The of one of the plotters supporting Zola was only puzzling by itself. But once Tarvek that those plotters were acting on behalf of House Valois, the fact that Oublenmach attributed significance to Gil having "called down the lightning" provides a very strong and definite indication that ability to manipulate lightning is very much relevant to one's claim to the title of the Storm King. :::See, I don't think that indicates anything of the kind. I think the whole shocked that Gil called down lightning bit was just... shocked that anyone, even a spark claiming to be the Baron's son, could accomplish that. It's an impressive feat, and has nothing to do with claim to any kind of title. The conspirator's connection to the Storm King doesn't change that in the slightest. We have already seen that titles are hereditary; why should "Storm King" be any different?LadyVivamus 18:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC) ::::We don't really know, though, if being the "Storm King" is a title so much as an appellation. Oublenmach's statement, "He called down the lightning," did seem to imply there was something special about lightning per se, and that, in general, Sparks hadn't been previously able to manipulate it in many cases. So, when the circle was completed, and Tarvek noted that Oublenmach worked for him, I then had to admit to Zarchne that the idea of Gil somehow being the "real" Storm King was one to take seriously. But the case isn't proven, and it may also be that both Gil and Tarvek will have rival claims to the designation, each with partial validity. --Quadibloc 00:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC) ::Before that, while it may well seem more fitting that someone who can really control the lightning rather than a descendant - and not in the male line - of a previous Storm King should be the real Storm King, it was, in my opinion, just speculation. --Quadibloc 22:52, 29 November 2008 (UTC) As I've written at least once on the Y! list, I've never really understood this question. Obviously Tarvek is the genetic descendant of the "Storm King" and would claim the title de jure while Gil would be the "Storm" "King" de facto if he were to take over from Klaus (as he is in the process of doing). End of story... that is, the front end. Now let's see how it plays out over the current short story and the next eight volumes (Act II of three) of Girl Genius, eh? (Somehow I know people are still going to argue about this non-issue, though.) ⚙Zarchne 01:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC) :What Z said. --mnenyver 07:45, 27 November 2008 (UTC) :Of course we are! It's fun!LadyVivamus 18:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC) : "Obviously Tarvek is the genetic descendant of the "Storm King"": Obviously? Do we have anything other than his his word for it? If that's all, we need to remember he's a liar. While he doesn't have an entry in the Girl Genius Complete List of Absolutely Everybody! he is mentioned as "the current Storm King apparent" (under the Moxana entry), but things are not always as they appear in GG. : Even if he is a''' descendant as claimed, we would need a complete genealogy and the rules for the appropriate Order of Succession to figure out if he has the strongest claim. Argadi 20:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC) :: Zarchne 04:28, 26 November 2008 (UTC) :::XD --mnenyver 07:45, 27 November 2008 (UTC) :::: I think Argadi is entirely right that we don't know if there is a descendant of Andronicus Valois closer to Tarvek in the line of succession. But we also have no reason to expect this issue to arise. Since Tarvek referred to the fact of his descent as, in effect, an 'explosive secret' (although those words were Agatha's), it would appear as if the line of Andronicus Valois is believed to be extinct, and Tarvek has good reason to believe that he is its sole or most lineal representative. --Quadibloc 00:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC) Food for thought for the rest of you - calling down lightening is apparently one of the 14 Accepted Signs of Divinity in the Buck Godot universe. Documented here. We know that The Winslow likes to show up in Girl Genius, so there is some definite bleed through. We also know that Lucrezia managed to get herself worshiped (and not just by the Geisters, if Tarvek's father is any indication of anything), so it should theoretically be possible for an ordinary, if albeit strong, spark to do something to convince the religiously inclined and/or ignorant of their divinity. While in Lucrezia's case, it may be infecting everyone and their grandmother with slaver wasps, is that all there is to it? Or is there, like in Buck Godot, some sort of checklist for what's worshipable? I would imagine that the folks in GG aren't too eager to jump at religion when they have SCIENCE! but apart from the whole "Is Gil the Real Storm King" debate and the debate of whether or not the "prophecy" even matters, Gil may have done something that, with the ignorant or uneducated or superstitious, may have possibly set him up to be the next Lucrezia. Or at least earned him a fair number of godhood points that may put him on the path to a Life of Brian type scenario. Judging by how much the universe seems to enjoy his continued suffering, I really wouldn't be surprised if he had to spend some time yelling out "I'm not the messiah" at some later point in the story. I don't think it will happen, but there's enough of a setup there to allow for it, imho. (P.S. I'm on the "Gil and/or Agatha and/or/but-probably-not Zola is also related to Andronicus" bandwagon. Or, who knows, maybe Zulenna will be popping up again and claiming descent too.) -- Elle :Oh, something that slipped my mind last night when writing the above. We have actually seen some inkling of Sparky religion. Aside from Ashtara (who we don't know the details of), and the Seven Popes, who must hold some sway over somebody for them them retain those titles, and a couple of chapels, we've seen Professor Diaz pray to perhaps sparkworld's equivalent of the Virgin Mary. So this makes one wonder what exactly what is enough to constitute divinity. Clearly, anyone with a sufficiently scientific background wouldn't take a miracle at face value because they'd think that there had to be science behind it (hence my ignorant/uneducated clause from above), but what about Sparks? It can't just be superstition, because they'd exhaust all the scientific avenues first...it would have to take technology that is way way way advanced, and even then, one would think that they'd try to figure out how it worked despite believing in it. Also, Madre de Diodes sounds like a very practical thing to pray to, but what does the religion that encompasses her actually entail. Maybe I'm just making too much of a throw-away joke and a possibly irrelevant point from Buck Godot, but religion would have to play a part somewhere, especially since we know the Geisterdamen will be very involved in the future...so what is the distinction between what it would take a Spark (say, maybe Tarvek's father) to believe and a supposedly more primitive society to believe? -- Elle I found the meaning of the symbol Gil was wearing (rather than the Wulfenbach tower with wings) when he was showing off his lab to Agatha. Here (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040218) you can see the symbol most clearly. It symbolized thunder and lightning in the region of the world that Gil's name originates: (http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/29/291.html) and (http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/30/303.html). Also, on this (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20031103) page, the Jager Generals know that Agatha is a Heterodyne, and what would make things really simple? If Gil was the Storm King and the much-flouted play/prophesy was fullfilled with their marriage. If this is true, it also implies that the Jager Generals know that Gil is the Storm King, and Occams Razor leads me to think that Klaus knows too (which would make sense, being the father and all). Plus Gil killed people with gigantic-uber-huge lightning! I apoligize for my noob editing skills. -- Lissa's Thinker : This symbolism (good find! Coincidence? or the Professors being really sneaky? Only time will tell.) plus all the supports Gil as the '''One True Storm King while Tarvek is only counting on the rather weak link of ancestry. Seems to me that the Professors have shown in the past their preference for The Spirit of Truth winning out over The Letter of the Law.CaptMorgan 20:00, October 21, 2009 (UTC) ::Vell, hit is goot if hit is correkt. Hy am not zo sure. Hy think the dewice is two of deze tinks back-to-back http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_heraldry see here, 1259-1453. Vhat der Pedia callz "Bs" are fire-steels (furisons/ferrises) for striking firez (a common miztak by non-heraldz) Look clozly at Gil's brooch and hyu vill zee the "squiggleys" on der endz dot mak me think hit iz two fire-steels. Now, dese could be a referenze to lightnink, howeffer. Or chust to Imperializm. Altgorl 00:22, October 22, 2009 (UTC) :::I could be the 'B's,' but only if your talking about the empty space in the symbol. On this (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040416) page you can see the symbol in verying degrees of detail. Of course, simple symbols could mean anything. Maybe Gil is the mesopotamian Sun God, Shamash. But why keep the symbol even after a change of clothes, if it didn't mean something? It's not just decoration, or they would have just used the Wulfenbach symbol. It means something relevant to the storyline, and conveniently fits in with the mysterious Jager General statements, the unknown mother, Gil's lightning motif, and the annoying prophesy. Occam's Razor? -- Lissa's Thinker 04:04, October 22, 2009 (UTC) ::::Ok I've done a bit more research on symbols. "The interpretation of the four B's standing for the motto "Basileus Basileon Basileuon Basileonton" (king of kings, ruling over those who rule)" This quote is from (http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/byzantin.htm). Also, from examining every picture of the symbol on Gil's neck, there is no empty space between the top and bottom holes. I also found a symbol a little closer in shape: The Sun Wheel or Ring Cross, which is fairly universal and represents power and supremacy. What I can't figure out is why the thing is OVAL. Everything is circle: circle with vertical and horizontal lines (highest power, sun, and it's counterpart, king- represented power and control) circle with vertical line (lightening) circle with horizontal line (idea of absolute) circle (divinity and power). The oval irks me. Also, i'd like to point out that Gil being connected to the Storm King does not negate Tarvek's claim. -- Lissa's Thinker 01:46, October 24, 2009 (UTC) Aaugh! I'm rereading the comic and I keep finding ambiguous evidence: (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040809) "Says his fiancee knocked him out." "History repeats itself." What history? ...the prophesy/play maybe? Note that Klaus now knows that Agatha's a Heterodyne. -- Lissa's Thinker 04:25, October 22, 2009 (UTC) : At a guess, Klaus was thinking of more recent, more personal events. Gil is his son, we've just learned/established that and in a day or so (internal chronology), we'll find that . -- Brassica 11:52, October 22, 2009 (UTC) ::Yeah, that makes more sense. But what about the Jager Generals' comments? I don't remember any obvious explaination for their comment. Why else would Agatha liking Gil make things, secret things, so simple? Does the Brassica know this also? -- Lissa's Thinker 01:46, October 24, 2009 (UTC) ::: The Brassica has no knowledge of this. It could be as simple as the General Khrizhan not wanting to reveal to Agatha that she was a Heterodyne, since she didn't seem to know it at that point. And a Wulfenbach-Heterodyne alliance would mean (potentially) an easier transition for the Jaegers, since they would be less likely to be put into a position where their new Heterodyne would ask them to make war on the Baron. Not sure how well that theory holds together, but if the transition of Jaeger loyalty from was from Heterodyne to Wulfenbach to Heterodyne-Wulfenbach, it could well seem like the best of both worlds to the Jaegers. And happy Jaegers have GOT to be easier to deal with than unhappy Jaegers. -- Brassica 21:38, October 25, 2009 (UTC) ::::This also brings up the fact that the Jager Generals keep Agatha's family identity away from Klaus, and then when the fake dead Agatha shows up they don't tell Klaus it fake nature, they can smell that the body isn't Agatha's. So why do they keep these secrets from the holder of their services and the supposed holder of their loyalties? They could want a peaceful transition of 'loyalty' like you suggested, the Brassica, but that doesn't match the Jager personality. Wan't to avoid war? Bah. With the introduction of the historicly known 'prophesy,' the Jagers , being so old, have a unique perspective of the political machinations within Europa; Jagers know that uniting two powerful sparks, each with their family inherited personalities prone to... violence, does not lead to 'peace.' Root for the good fight! ...Okay, so this theory is a bit contrived, but the original theory is still valid. How many secret things can a Jager General keep... while screwing in a lightbulb? We've established that they hold a stake in a marriage between Agatha and Gil, but is it due to their change in loyalties, Gil possibly being a Storm King, or that Gil likes Agatha and they want him a happy little spark? *shrugs* -- Lissa's Thinker 03:00, October 26, 2009 (UTC) ::::: Maybe they think that Agatha marrying Gil is good for Agatha (the Heterodynes), just like not telling Klaus she is alive is good for Agatha. Argadi 08:30, October 26, 2009 (UTC) ::::::But why would they go through so much trouble to keep the reason for their questioning secret from Agatha, if it's merely an inquiry into her happiness or wellbeing? No, the Jager Generals motivation is something with more plot-impact. It could be my Gil/StormKing theory or something else equally juicy. -- Lissa's Thinker 22:17, October 26, 2009 (UTC) :::::::The thing is, the Jaegers like violence, yes! -- but it's not their sole or even top priority. There are some dopey ones who may not think of much else, but the Generals are among those who consider other factors. One of those is that it's not all that good for the Heterodyne to fight the current ruler of Europa unless she can win, and at the moment she had neither the experience nor the interest. Furthermore, the current ruler of Europa was her father's and uncle's friend. (True, they didn't think he'd make a priority of looking for them, but there are multiple factors there: even the Jaegers thought it was a futile quest, for instance.) The Jaegers needed him, by their own report, and as far as the reader can tell, he's held up his end of the bargain pretty well. And we know that they are capable of forming friendships and caring about or respecting people other than the Heterodynes. While there has been no transition of primary loyalty (I think everyone involved knows that Klaus is only borrowing the Jaegers), that doesn't mean they might not like or respect him enough -- or recognize enough practical complications -- to prefer the "simpler" solution. :::::::So I think this was mostly a matter of a little bit of hopeful matchmaking going on from one side, and decided disapproval from another -- whether of the match itself or the leading questions! PersephoneKore 04:21, October 28, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::You make a good point. So good a point, in fact, that my theory was killed. But this does not explain why the Jager Generals were so admant at the secrecy of their question's purpose. I find their secrecy suspicious, and was hoping the explaination was more juicy than, "Let's not tell Agatha Heterodyne that we have an interest in her possible marriage to Gil Wulfenbach, due to our own political situation and the fact that we haven't told her that she is Heterodyne." ...not very juicy. Ah, well, I shouldn't have tried to base a theory off of wishful thinking. I blame my no0b status. *blame-blame* -- Lissa's Thinker 02:42, October 29, 2009 (UTC) :::::::::It strikes me as obvious that "It would make things really simple" refers to the fact that if Agatha marries Gil, the Jagers don't have to leave the Baron in order to serve their rightful mistress. If serving Agatha meant leaving the Baron, the transition could be very messy and complicated. But if Agatha becomes the Baron's Daughter-in-Law, then ve gotz no problem! 19:47, July 24, 2010 (UTC) Another piece of evidence linking Gil to the Storm King is the title of Volume 9: "Agatha Heterodyne and the Heirs of the Storm." Heirs. Plural. And the cover art depicts Agatha, Gil, and Tarvek - implying that "Heirs of the Storm" refers to both Tarvek and Gil. 19:47, July 24, 2010 (UTC) : Plural. You may be leaving out someone. The original storm king wasn't a spark. Sparks are very showy but somewhat unstable. The Storm King slept around alot. So there might be more candidates in the gene pool than everyone is counting? My bets on the guy with the suggestive first name and a lot of brothers. --Rej 23:39, July 25, 2010 (UTC) ::Um...what? On what evidence do you base your assertion that Andronicus Valois was not a Spark? I always assumed that he was, because in the GG world, having the Spark is effectively a prerequisite for holding power. Also, the level of psychological instability varies immensely from one Spark to the next, running the whole range from frothing-at-the-mouth insanity to moderately eccentric. Are you implying that because Andronicus wasn't insane, he wasn't a Spark? There are several characters in the story, including all four of the most important characters, who demolish that logic in an instant. You are probably quite correct that there are a lot of illegitimate descendants of Andronicus running around - Indeed, that's what makes it plausible that Gil could be one. But who is "the guy with the suggestive first name and a lot of brothers"? It's not at all obvious to me who you are referring to. 16:30, August 16, 2010 (UTC) ::: Good. No sense being obscure if everybody gets the reference at once. Try looking at the characters introduced in the now colored chapter. ::: As for your Um...what?. I've gotten the impression from my reading that Valios was not a spark. Otilia-in-Von Pinn refers to him as my beloved king. Otilia was made by the spark Van Rijn for the king. At the Department of Uncertainly True HistoryNot to be confused with Department of Irrefutably True History the lack of insanity is definitely a clue to a lack of spark. Someone's got to run the fun house. --Rej ¤¤? 21:31, August 16, 2010 (UTC) :::: Deliberate obfuscation is not a sign of intelligence. It indicates either dishonesty, insecurity, or disrespect for one's audience. I have seen it before and I am not impressed. :::: The fact that Andronicus received gifts from Van Rijn that he could not have made himself is not evidence that Andronicus was not a Spark. All it means is that Van Rijn was more talented than Andronicus at clankmaking (indeed, his reputation is that he was the greatest clankmaker ever. In 200 years no one was able to duplicate his work.) Now, my main point: In this universe it is a fact of life that one does not ascend to a position of power, let alone take over a whole continent, without being a Spark. The reason for this is simple: A non-Spark does not have a chance in a battle against a Spark. The Spark's superior charisma will attract more followers, and their superior weaponry will win on the battlefield. It seems clear from the secret blueprints that once a powerful family loses its Spark, it loses its power soon after to a family that has it. (Zulenna's family has held on solely because they have defenses that were built by the Heterodyne Boys, who were the best Sparks of their generation.) I cannot for the life of me see Moloch, or anyone like him, gaining a position of power over people like Agatha, Tarvek, or Klaus. And as I said before, there are plenty of Sparks who are merely eccentric rather than insane. Andronicus appears to have been one of them, and the influence of the Muses is said to have had a salutary effect on his mind. 22:41, August 16, 2010 (UTC) I think that Gil could very well be the (or at least A) Storm King. My reasons are: 1. He has summoned lighting twice (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040213 and http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20071126), 2. The sigil he wears while showing Agatha his lab (see previous link) is a symbol that means Thunder and Lightning. 3. The general fact "If the stories are true, half of Europa-''" could be descended from the Storm King. 4. According to the prophecy shown the the Opera Synopsys, Europa will only be at peace when the Storm King marries the Heterodyne Girl. There is ''obviously a thing going on with Agatha and Gil, and wouldn't that work out nicely? Plus, the only other possibility shown at this point is Tarvek, and quite frankly, I can't imagine him getting married to Agatha. 5. The title of one of the volumes is "Heirs of the Storm". Heirs, plural. Obviously being an Heir to the Storm refers to being the Storm King's heir. Tarvek, obviously is that, but the plural implies another, which may be Gil. All this stuff has been mentioned already, but I thought that it might be helpful to solidify it.